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The Last Expedition, interview with the director Eliza Kubarska

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The director Eliza Kubarska

Pioneering Polish mountain climber Wanda Rutkiewicz disappeared in the Himalayas in 1992. What happened on that final climb? Filmmaker and mountaineer Eliza Kubarska traces Wanda’s footsteps on the world’s highest peaks in a journey into the mystery surrounding the fate of the first woman to summit K2. Could Wanda be still alive, in a monastery in Tibet? Weaving together Wanda’s own, previously unseen diaries, audio and video archives from her Himalayan expeditions, interviews with legendary climbers, Sherpas, Buddhist nuns and monks, this is a riveting account of the emotional struggles and aspirations of a woman who rose above a world that often sought to limit her and charted her own path to freedom.

Dimitra Kouzi: Is Wanda’s (Rutkiewicz's) story still relevant today?

Eliza Kubarska: Of course. Although this story happened 30 years ago, it is still relevant. We made a film about a woman who had vision, passion, and dreams. She wanted to live her own way and at that time most women thought that was impossible.

I think that the situation of women in many countries today, even in Europe, is still not good. A lot of things need to change everywhere – in the film industry, in business, politics, sport, at home – women’s status is not the same as men’s. And I’m not talking about feminism only. To me, it’s about women and men having the same right to decide about themselves, to make their own decisions. Both men and women should have this right equally.

The world of mountain climbing – especially scaling the highest peaks – remains predominantly male-dominated, with a narrative shaped by men.  Naturally, fewer women are involved. If only for biological reasons, a woman's price for being a climber will always be higher, and it will be harder for her to lead a normal life outside of this passion. Therefore, I believe that if a woman wants to climb the highest mountains, the mountain community must support her. It is not a question of whether they like it or not.

Dimitra Kouzi: What elements of this story were most interesting for you?

Eliza Kubarska: This story unfolds in the highest, most challenging mountains, the Himalayas, and is about a woman who wants to make her own choices. For her, personal freedom is what’s most important, to be able to say what she wants and be clearly heard.

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Dimitra Kouzi: In your film, you reveal for the first time Wanda’s incredible personal archive. What was your approach to navigating and exploring this wealth of material?

Eliza Kubarska: We didn't know about this archive, which has several dozen boxes. I received the material from Wanda's sister, Janina Fies. We had no budget to digitise it, no people to work on it. I was alone.  At some point Daria Sieracka joined me to help.

There are more than thirty 16mm film tapes from the 1970s and ’80s, and dozens of video tapes in various formats. There are also a few thousand slides from the Himalayas, including from Everest ’78, or even earlier, from the 1960s. I started from the slides by myself, I went through 5,000 slides, but there are still more. I didn’t complete this work because I saw the possibility to scan all the tapes. Luckily, we got support from the Documentary and Feature Film Studio in Warsaw (WFDiF).

There are private letters, expedition documents, original typescripts of books, articles, and important writings. There is a box of letters to Wanda from her fans, which she never opened because there were simply too many of them.

There were also thirty audio tapes. On two of them I found very strange recordings of trekking in the Himalayas, a kind of Wanda’s personal journal. Here, she asked herself many questions, questioned some of her life choices. She related what she experienced along the way, poor Nepalese villages, local families, to herself. She wondered if she could live there, why she didn't become a mother, even though she had wanted to. She talked about why it was difficult for her to find a life partner and about Kurt Lyncke, the man she loved, who died in the mountains. I don't know what her purpose was in recording these intimate thoughts. I decided to use them in the film.

I know exactly when she recorded this material: in 1991, less than one year before she disappeared. It was during an expedition to Kanchenjunga, the same mountain, but from a different side. She hadn’t succeeded in 1991, and then she went back in 1992. On these audio tapes, she stated that she didn’t belong to any world, that there was no way back for her, that perhaps at a certain moment she changed from the ‘travelling Buddha’ to the ‘settled Buddha’ – but this is not the time to talk about that. 

She was able to give a name to certain feelings, and I think that was the moment when she realised that she had paid a very high price for her choices, and there was no way back for her. She recognised that she had crossed the line. If only there had been someone to point out to her that this was not the end, that it was still possible for her to change her life… I’m not talking about the physical possibility. She experienced a level of depression so high that she could not stand it.

Dimitra Kouzi: What was the high price she paid?

Eliza Kubarska: She was extremely lonely at the end, and she didn’t want to be lonely. She was a woman who wanted to have a life partner, to have a family and children. And I know this from her audio diary and from her sister, who told me that Wanda, who was already an outstanding climber, visited Janina when she gave birth to her daughter and said that she was jealous of her having a child. Wanda also wanted to climb with other people but sadly she was partially excluded from the community.

Dimitra Kouzi: And what was the line that she crossed?

Eliza Kubarska: She couldn't be happy here in the lowlands anymore, but she couldn't stay in the Himalayas all the time, either. When you're a climber, you're often in life-threatening situations, between life and death. That's – as Messner said – one of the most powerful experiences a person can have. And maybe you get addicted to it. When you return to this lowland reality, it becomes very difficult to live normally, especially if you don't have family here who can support you emotionally and help you readjust. If Wanda had survived, if she had come back, she might have become a filmmaker, as she always had a photo camera and a film camera with her. That’s what happened to me. I used to be an alpinist too, I went on mountain expeditions. Now I look for that same chemistry in my brain when I work on film productions. It’s also associated with stress, instability, a lack of security. I’m probably addicted to that as well; that’s why I make documentaries.

Dimitra Kouzi: These experiences as a climber and traveller are very inspiring. What other sources of inspiration do you have in your work as an artist?

Eliza Kubarska: Relationships with other people are very important to me, both those around me and those from other cultures I meet while travelling. Human psychology and nature have always fascinated me. While travel provides an interesting backdrop for my stories, my primary focus is on human relationships. I'm always intrigued by why people behave the way they do. And also nature inspires me. I love being outdoors, but it’s the interaction between humans and nature that is my main interest. I love making films exploring these themes.

Dimitra Kouzi: What role do the personal accounts by these iconic climbers play in the film?

Eliza Kubarska: When I received Wanda’s private archives, I discovered her own perspective. But I wouldn’t have been able to build this topic without other people who knew her. I met over thirty people, including Wanda’s sister and friends. Wanda was friends with some very interesting women. But I also met some men and women from the climbing community who had issues with her. And I wanted to do this film because the narrative about Wanda is controversial. On one hand, you have an amazing woman, who gave us a lot of inspiration. But on the other hand, I heard voices from some in the climbing community, that she was an egoist who was focused only on her own goals at all costs. 

Dimitra Kouzi: And what about Reinhold Messner?

Eliza Kubarska: I needed a strong, informed person to give me a statement. And I knew the only person who could do that was Messner. There is no discussion, he is the most renowned mountaineer and he’s been in the climbing community for more than fifty years. He’s the first person to climb all the highest peaks. Also, he’s a philosopher; he has a way with words; he knew Wanda, and he is from the same generation. They met each other on expeditions many times. They never happened to be on the same expedition, but they were on the same mountain, in the same Base Camp. He knew her from the very beginning: the first time they met was in 1975 in Karakoram.

He refused to be interviewed two or three times but I insisted, and finally he accepted. I didn’t know what he would say, but what he says is right on point. And he gave a beautiful reply to the common question why people climb, why they take such risks.

Carlos Carsolio from Mexico was the last person to see Wanda. He’s also one of the first who completed the eight-thousand-metre peaks. Carlos is the fourth who did it; Krzysztof Wielicki is fifth. Their achievements are at the highest level, yet all of them have different perspectives. Carlos is a very spiritual person. He was 30 and she was 49 at the time when they climbed Kangchenjunga in 1992. His young team called her “Abuela,” which means “Grandmother.” And when I asked him about the relationship between him and her, he said that it was a platonic romantic relationship. Carlos faced a very difficult situation when he passed Wanda at 8,300m. She did not want to come down with him. And he, as he relates, had no right to tell her to.

Krzysztof Wielicki from Poland, first a student of Wanda's and then a mountain friend, was the leader of the Annapurna expedition in 1991, during which Wanda was accused of falsely claiming to have reached the summit. In an official statement, Krzysztof stated that Wanda had conquered the mountain.

Dimitra Kouzi: What were some of the most challenging aspects of filming in the Himalayas, both technically and logistically?

Eliza Kubarska: My film crew were talented filmmakers but not great outdoor adventurers. For instance, while filming “The Wall of Shadows” in 2017–9, a film about Sherpas, with producer Monika Braid, when we were in fact already producing material for “Wanda”! I knew we would not be able to come back to the same places because it’s too far, too high and just too complicated and expensive. We had to stay with our film crew at an altitude of 5,000m on a glacier for over three weeks, in winter in the Himalayas! Monica is such a great producer: she’s brave, she trusts me and she organised such complicated film sets.

Sleeping, filming, and even copying footage on the glacier was extremely difficult, especially with limited access to electricity. As an experienced climber and climbing instructor, I was more comfortable in that environment. But it was a constant challenge to ensure the safety and well-being of our less outdoor-savvy crew. We always have to be very sensitive to that.

Dimitra Kouzi: Were there any parts of the story that were difficult to convey on screen, that you really wanted to show but didn’t know how to tackle?

Eliza Kubarska: When you go to Nepal or Sikkim and you visit Buddhist nunneries and spend time with the women there, which I did and then Monika joined me, after a while we were in a completely different world. I mean, in a spiritual sense. I am a fulfilled person, and I have a reason to come back. But when I was in these nunneries, at one moment I got the feeling – and I love adventures and I’m really bored when I do nothing, you know – but at one moment I was sitting there and thought, “Hey, I could stay here much longer. I feel so good. I would just like to be here.”  And then I realised Wanda might have felt the same and done that. 

Director Eliza Kubarska and producer Monika Braid

Dimitra Kouzi: Are there any moments in the film, or during the entire process, when you felt transformed personally and as a filmmaker?

Eliza Kubarska: Definitely. It holds special meaning for me as a woman climber. If I weren’t a climber, the story would be different. I watched Wanda through my own eyes, through the perspective of a filmmaker and an alpinist.  Initially, when I learned about the price she paid, I felt deep sympathy for her. I thought, “This is how it went for her in this world.” I believe the price she paid was her incredibly painful loneliness. Being excluded from society and feeling like you don’t belong anywhere. I used to think that this was a price she paid. Yet, now I realise that she followed her own path. I came to see that she wasn’t a loser; she was a winner. She remained loyal to herself until the very end. When you look in the mirror at any moment in your life, you should ask yourself if you are being true to yourself and to what you believe is right for you. 

Wanda had strong values. When the events at Annapurna happened – when she was accused of being dishonest – it was devastating for her because honesty was paramount to her as an athlete from the very beginning. That accusation broke her completely. Unfortunately, I have had a similar experience as a climber myself, where I was accused of dishonesty about a climb during my expedition. It almost destroyed me. And then, for many years, I’ve felt ashamed that such a thing happened to me, that I allowed a group of people to hurt me so. Being slandered became one of the hardest experiences of my climbing life. Wanda described her experience of Annapurna in the very same terms. We both felt tainted. When I discovered that very word in her archives, I felt angry that she, too, had to go through this difficult experience. I thought, “No, I’m not ashamed anymore. It is not I who should be ashamed, but the people who unfairly slandered me.” That realisation was transformative for me.

Dimitra Kouzi: Therefore, you believe that Wanda may have had reasons not to want to come back?

Eliza Kubarska: Absolutely, without a doubt. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not; we have nobody to confirm her fate. You can never be one hundred percent sure that someone is dead if the body has not been found.

The interview has been edited for length and clarity.

The international Premiere of the film is at IDFA 2024, Luminous

Find out more about the film's background, protagonists, creative team in the Press kit

EFA awards, EN, Interviews, People

21 ✕ Questions on 21 ✕ New York

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21 ✕ Questions to the Polish director Piotr Stasik on his EFA-nominated feature-length documentary film 21 ✕ New York

  1. What is your favourite interview question?
    I don’t have such a question.
  1. Why New York? What does it mean to you? Why 21?
    I chose New York because it’s like a laboratory of the future, of how our life will look like in the future. I thought it’s a city where you can feel free and where you can make your dreams come true. This is one of the myths of this city that attracts people who are outsiders, who look for something more. In New York, these people seek home and others that are similar to them. A whole world comes to this place – to live, work, express themselves creatively. It is the capital of the world.
    The number 21 occurs in the film a few times. We’ve got 21 characters – people I met in the NYC Subway. The age of the main protagonist is 21 – as is the century we live in.
    I chose 21 characters because it’s a number of people that offers a chance to show a cross-section of a society. I’m a sociologist by education. In the beginning, this film was more of a scientific research, participatory observation.

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  1. You refer to yourself as "a harmless vampire documentalist". How did you choose your interview subjects? 
    Vampire – because we documentary filmmakers suck in other people’s emotions and stories like blood. We thrive on them and create our films with them. Harmless – because when we do it right, we act ethically, we do not harm our protagonists – on the contrary. Often, their participation in the film is for them a moment of joint creation, and watching themselves on the screen can be an opportunity for self-analysis, to find something about themselves, even therapy.
    My research included collecting different stories. These were not interviews; rather, more like conversations where the topic came out naturally. I told them my story, and then asked them about the most important things and events in their lives. The most common topics were relationships, loneliness and being lost, confused. They came up in almost all conversations. Of course, I somehow asked for it too by intuitively choosing such protagonists and by taking the conversations in certain directions. However, to what extent I interfered and to what extent it was a reflection of a real situation – this I wouldn’t know. Loneliness is the disease not only of big cities but also of our times. Comfort and prosperity, combined with the abundance of stimuli and possibilities, create a situation where we either meticulously direct and stage our life, making it predictable and, eventually, boring, or, on the other hand, we spread ourselves thin, we can’t focus on anything, we cannot work for a longer period of time on ourselves, on relations with other people. One of my female protagonists told me that there’s no use working on the relationship with her boyfriend when new, more attractive men are already lining up just behind the corner, or in an app. In the more extreme situations, people check their tinder in bed, when having sex. Maybe it’s just how our brain functions. When we achieve something, we get used to it and we want something else. Sebastian, a newcomer in New York like myself, observes what’s going on and talks about what is at the end of this spiral. He is my alter ego.

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  1. How does it feel to be inside the heads of your characters?
    I wanted the viewers to feel as if they could, or that they did, enter my characters’ minds for a while. Hence, the form. It’s like becoming a God for a moment – to know the thoughts of people passed by in the subway.
  1. Did you have a clear idea of what the film would look like before filming?
    It was like an experiment, like anthropological research with a camera. I go underground like an anthropologist, like Bronislaw Malinowski on Trobriand Islands but, instead of in a notebook, I make my notes in the camera. Sometimes, I felt as if I were making a new version of “The Sexual Lives of Savages”. I didn’t know how the film would end but I knew its structure and form from the beginning. I had a script, with probable dialogues even.
  1. Which photographers inspire you?
    I look at photographs of many authors – mostly Cartier-Bresson or Michael Ackerman. I’m addicted to browsing through photography albums in bookstores. It was with photography that I started my adventure with image and film when, as a 15-year-old boy, I photographed kitschy compositions with metal junk.
  1. What did your instinct help you to do while you were shooting? My instinct helps me to choose potential protagonists for my film from thousands of people I pass by. Instinct combined with experience helps me to decide where to put the camera, when to press the record button, what to ask, how to shake reality in order for something interesting to happen right in front of the lens. My master, Marcel Łoziński, says that reality is like an aquarium – the fish swim lazily and only at scarce moments does something happen. So as to make that ‘something’ happen exactly when we want it, we need to interfere somehow. That’s what documentary directing is about. With small gestures, energy, or just using body language, we can stimulate the characters to open themselves, to take actions.
  1. Tell me of “magical” moments.
    When one of my characters introduced himself with the words, “I am you”. I got shivers down my spine. Also, I often feel very moved during editing, and I can only hope that my viewers would feel moved as well. That is why it is so important for me to achieve a certain level of focus. One of such methods is the rite of passage that allows you to transcend your own self. In the case of this film it was total exhaustion. This allowed me to immerse in the city, melt into it and become one with it. Recording the footage felt like swimming, or like a long, day-and-night dance with the inhabitants of New York.
  1. The camera work in combination with the sound/music creates a certain feeling in the viewer; it keeps them captivated while witnessing from up close life through the subjects. Tell us about your method of cinematography.
    I wanted the viewer to be like in a state of trance, to contemplate the world, to travel into the thoughts and lives of other people. We switch from one character to the other as if we were changing channels on TV. On the surface, nothing connects the protagonists apart from the place. I recorded the film with an unscrewed lens. By doing that, I stained the immaculate clarity of the digital image. It became more emotional, more subjective. The camera set I put together is very small and relatively quick and easy to use. Thanks to this, it does not feel intrusive during conversations, during my ‘dancing’. I don’t have to be only a filmmaker, I become the participant of events without harming the quality of the recording.

21xny_pat10. Why do you do documentaries?
It is to me a way of looking for the answer how to live and what to live for. A way of living in a more curious and more emotional way. The camera gives me a chance to visit places and ask questions I normally wouldn’t, out of lack of courage.

  1. Do you “flirt” with fiction?
    Of course. One of my characters is almost completely invented. I won’t tell which one. The world changes; our sensitivity changes with it. The film language has to change too. We look for new tricks but the truth is we’ve been telling the same tales for thousands of years. We need to surprise our audience with new things that make them forget about reality but at the same time allow them to feel it’s about them.
  1. Do you have an obsession?
    My obsession is the constant fight for time. Not wasting it on useless, petty issues like checking news on the Internet. Our lives are more and more dependent on some kind of a logarithm. After all, Facebook’s aim is not to nurture our friendships, or love, at all. These social media guys sit there and think how to make us buy their tricks.
    Big money and most talented people work now on how to suck in the biggest amount of people for the longest period of time and make us addicted to “using”. We – and our kids, too – are helpless and bound to be defeated.
  1. What do you have against conventions?
    Conventions enable us to make decisions faster, but at the same time they work as internal shackles. Imprinted within us, they don’t allow us to see our real needs, to live in the truth and in agreement with ourselves.
  1. What do all your films have in common?
    My films are a constant journey and contemplation of the world. It’s a geographic journey as well as an inward journey into human existence – into the mind and, hopefully, into the soul.
  1. What do you mean when you say “we live in a bubble”?
    Did I say that? Maybe I meant the Internet. We move part of our consciousness into the Internet, into a virtual world, believing it’s real. We don’t have to remember many things, because we can check them instantly, we don’t have time to meet with our real friends but at the same time we maintain superficial relations with 200 or even 1000 friends on Facebook.
  1. Did having a family change your attitude towards your art? Life?
    I don’t understand the question.

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  1. Why do you say that we have no clue about what is going on around us?
    The Internet changes our everyday behaviour; it influences our relations; it seduces us, making us addicted. We don’t know what its influence on our lives will be in the long run – on our emotions, selection of partners – ultimately, on our souls.
  1. How can someone be happy?
    Happiness is an overrated and abused term. Everybody wants to be happy on a daily basis. This is impossible. This compulsive aim to be happy directs the attention towards us; it’s the basis for everything else.
    However, as imperfect creatures, we are bound to suffer, to feel discontent; we are destined to build imperfect institutions and countries; our body switches off the older we become. Only if we accept this, can we reach an agreement with ourselves and achieve balance – maybe this is the state we should call happiness?
  1. What makes you happy?
    In general, giving to others. I experience that especially when I teach. This is all about giving your energy to other people, who then disappear from your sight and then suddenly sometime someday you hear that you’ve changed someone’s life.
  1. Tell us about the project you work on now in Poland?
    An opera about Poland. It’s a combination of a documentary film and contemporary opera. The libretto consists mainly of small ads from local newspapers and Internet blogs. It’s an attempt to describe the spiritual state of Poles, the release of some behaviours and habits that are related to choices we make in our private and public lives. I thought I was making a film about Poland, but at foreign screenings people say that it’s also a story about their own emotions towards their countries – something between being pissed off and being sentimental.
  1. Where will you put the EFA award?
    I don’t believe I’ll get it.